Who are Omar and Raven?

We have 2 new horses arrive… but whose horses are they?


 

In this next episode, Big Mama Audelina takes matters into her own hands and knocks down the fenceline separating Omar and Raven from the herd. When we arrive, Omar and Raven are out of their pen, but it doesn’t look like the herd is accepting them… or is something else going on??

Well, what do you think? I know we’ve got some very experienced horse listeners on here… what do you think, and what would you do in this situation?

Who are Omar and Raven?

11 thoughts on “Who are Omar and Raven?

  • August 22, 2021 at 4:24 am
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    I don’t have experience of this symptom you’re referring to, it is called “klapphingst” in Swedish, but I’ve had two geldings behaving in a similar manner to Raven. Both of these horses were gelded in adult age and had covered mares as young stallions. In a new and exciting situation with a new mare in heat, the stallion-behavior came back quite strongly in both of them, and then after a while when things settled down it went away again. And then the next spring it might come back, but not as strongly, and then the next year maybe just a little and only if the mare initiated it persistently. (One of them was gelded at a clinic with laser surgery, so at least he was properly gelded.)

    Lovely to see how the rest of them keep quite cool and the harmony is quite easily restored!

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    • August 22, 2021 at 3:59 pm
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      Very interesting Sofia – With the 2 late-gelded horses, were they put in with mares soon after their gelding surgery? Like within a year? I ask because I’ve noticed that it can take a while for testosterone levels to drop and then for the stallion behaviours to subside completely. Montaro took a few years as well, Makah took 2 years. Unfortunately, we don’t have enough information on Raven to know when he was gelded, but it’s been more than 3 years for sure.

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      • August 22, 2021 at 10:45 pm
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        I don’t know about one of the two, I met him later in his life; he could be in a blended herd, but he was always the leader and that was always very clear. There was also a gelded donkey in the same herd, and they became quite good friends ❤️ This horse could sometimes drive off another gelding, but never get into a fight.

        The gelding I have now was put together with mares he was used to maybe four months after being gelded. We have one younger mare, that joined the herd a few years later, and he didn’t show any stallion like behavior with her for three or four years, and then this spring he did a little. I tried once keeping him in a mixed herd, but he got too protective of his mares and got into too brutal fights. I didn’t do a good enough job introducing him to it, I know that now, but maybe it wouldn’t have worked out anyway.

        I also adore stallions and I find it so sad we often have to make the choice of robbing them of that wonderful stallion energy or keeping them quite isolated.

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        • August 23, 2021 at 11:36 am
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          So interesting… and also in the testing for testosterone levels, it’s not that the geldings have NONE once their testicles are removed. So where is the testosterone coming from? It’s obviously still being made somewhere in the body, and therefore it would be expected that levels would fluctuate somewhat. There’s so much we don’t know…

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          • August 28, 2021 at 3:48 am
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            Yes, very interesting and fascinating. And also, always to remember there is so much we do not know, and to remember to maintain this sense of wonder and curiosity… You wrote it wonderfully in one of your posts; about this astounded, lucid, confused state ❤️ That’s probably the best we can do a lot of the time 😊 Our lead mare always reminds me of how little I know, I used to find it a bit intimidating and now I love it. Hope things are settling down there and that the limps and bruises are healing well.

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  • August 22, 2021 at 9:48 am
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    I have heard it referred to as proud cut? I have seen a horse in our neighborhood attack his heard mate after living together for years when mares came into heat in a paddock across the property from them it was really ugly and my sons friend called me as he saw it as he was driving by! I had to go and get my big girl energy on and separate them before he killed his herd mate!

    As you might’ve of read I recently brought my girlfriends Appaloosa gelding to stay with us why she relocates and he has acted at times as if Dreamer is his mare? Although Dreamer is not 100% on board with this behavior …at times he herds him like a mare and it has caused problems! They can be together the majority of the time but they did have a kicking incident a few days ago that I was not thrilled about and I just can’t take the chance of Dreamer getting hurt because of this! So Chippewa is going to go stay at her sons place as he has now got all the fencing up! I feel bad because Buckaroo and he have become such comrades and they love to play rough with each other …but Chippewa looks a lot like Omar… he has a ton of war wounds and nobody else really does except for the kick that he landed on Dreamers back legs. I suspect he might have been proud cut also?
    Herd dynamics are so fascinating and also ever changing from hour to hour & day to day! We have all geldings here and it still is an interesting dynamic even though they are all over 10 years old. From what I have seen …the more horses you add the more complex and diverse the dynamics become!

    Of course you know I am extremely curious why two new horses have come to be with the herd? Especially when the other lads are still at Kesias? and you felt like that among was too much for the property? I am sure you will explain it all to us but it did raise a lot of questions in my mind? I’m also curious why you have delayed explaining the whole story? look forward to hearing all the details?
    ✌🏼💚🐴

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    • August 22, 2021 at 3:56 pm
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      Well googling “proud cut” led me to the MOST useful paper on this condition I’ve seen to date:

      http://csu-cvmbs.colostate.edu/Documents/Learnstall9-proudcut-apr09.pdf

      What’s super interesting to me is that, the higher temperature in the abdomen inhibits the production of viable sperm, so even though the horse is showing stallion behaviours, he cannot impregnate mares.

      This correlates with Laure’s story about her crypt mustang… the fact that he could be with a herd of 70 horses, yet not impregnate any of the mares.

      Your story about Chippewa is also interesting – even with no mares around, testosterone is testosterone! Cobra has some scrapes on him too and Makah is limping… If Raven went into a herd with Montaro and Jax, it would be a BAD scene for sure. When Makah arrived as a stallion, I had a double fence around his arena, so the other horses could just barely touch noses, but not much else. Aude immediately came into heat and kept trying to get closer to Makah, and both Montaro and Jax would intervene very aggressively to keep her very far away from him.

      I’m sure my cryptic storytelling must be SUPER frustrating! But I assure you I have solid reasons as to why I can’t reveal things yet. For sure, by October at the latest, I will be able to tell all! xoxo

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  • August 22, 2021 at 3:32 pm
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    In answer to whether Raven is cryptorchid. IMO, from experience with my young mustang, Django, I would answer with fair amount of confidence the answer would be “yes”. I got Django as a 18 mo. old, “gelding” of unknown origin, from a Hispanic man who spoke no English so negotiations were interpreted through his son, who was not real familiar with the horse. I was told Django was 3 years old and they had had him gelded by a veterinarian. The horse was definitely mustang, but with no brand and no idea where they got him from. He was wild when they got him. I bought him. I had a vet check him out immediately. Was told Django was most likely 18 mos. old. Certainly not 3 years old, which confirmed my suspicion. The horse had been abused and was terribly frightened and stand-offish of men. I demanded nothing of him, worked with him over next 3 years. Had established a good trusting relationship. Then due to a move from one place to another I had to board him at a friends far away. Wonderful place, part of herd on 70 acres. Excellent care by knowledgable horse woman. Django’s stay intended for only months turned into over a year. Just about ready to bring him back to new digs, my partner sustained a life-threatening car accident. Postponing any horses arrival. Covid hit and that’s when I received call from my friend caring for Django. She informed me she could no longer keep Django there. He was becoming a danger to the stability of the herd, which was composed of her horses and clients horses. He had sequestered 5-6 mares being extremely aggressive with other geldings and mares he didn’t want in his personal herd. We both suspected cryptorchid. I was heart-broken because I had to place to keep him and no place would take him displaying that type of aggressive behavior. I ended up searching for Mustang Refuges in the area. I was lucky to find an excellent place for him.He got the last available spot. He would be tested and if necessay be given the operation to remove the abdominal testicle that never dropped. Under the circumstances of my life I couldn’t bring him home. I thus made the decision, based on best outcome for Django, to surrender him to the Mustang Rescue Shelter where they would have he would be thoroughly vetted, tested and operated on if necessary. Plus re-training and rehoming if his behavior was safe. Otherwise he would have a forever home there on the ranch. Most difficult to let him go…I did not follow up to find out what the test results were. Much too emotional to stay attached. I knew he went to loving competent hands and his life path and mine had to part ways. But I do sincerely believe he was cryptorchid. Physically as he matured from and 18 mo. old to a 6 year old when I sent him to my friend’s to board, his physique had developed with very stallion-ish signs. More filled out and muscular body, esp. thicker strong neck and with a new, different confidence. The aggressiveness did not show dramatically until he had been at my friend’s for a few months.
    I believe Raven has the signs of a cryptorchid. Will be curious to find out test results.
    Thank you for posting the video! 🐴

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    • August 22, 2021 at 4:03 pm
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      Gah. That’s heartbreaking Laure. But so good you managed to find him a spot at a place experienced with mustangs. Raven’s brother seems to manage him with no issues, so perhaps it’s best for the two of them to have their own pasture – far away from any mares! And with at least a double fence in between any mares in the area. I’m not sure abdominal surgery at his age would be the best idea. But that’s for his owner to decide. Personally, I ADORE stallions. There’s a level of sensitivity and responsiveness that definitely changes when you geld them. If I could have, I would have kept all my lads as stallions. I’ll keep you posted and let y’all know what happens…

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  • August 23, 2021 at 6:55 am
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    I don’t think he needs to be cryptorchid in order to display this type of behavior. One of my guys, Boreas, was cryptorchid and was therefore sent to a university hospital to be fully gelded by 2-years-of-age; so, unless the university lied to me and didn’t perform the procedure, I am certain he is completely gelded now…..and, yup, he has been living with a mare since he was 2 (now is 5) and has never mounted her.
    Fast forward to now, and our recent herd integration, bringing a new mare on the scene and Boreas and Eartha are like two love bugs 🤷🏽‍♀️🤦🏽‍♀️ I was shocked at first but he isn’t being particularly obnoxious, so it really isn’t a big deal. He still leaves the other mare alone. Funny, though, because generally speaking he is also the horse the often has the most battle scars, because he will NOT yield. A horse can bite and kick him, if he doesn’t want to move he doesn’t move……..
    Curious to see what the vet will find with Omar.

    I thought the Singing horse herd was actually quite welcoming and kind in the videos……looking good!

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    • August 23, 2021 at 11:32 am
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      Awww so great that tough Boreas has a sweetheart! And yes, personality plays a huge role. Also, what if Zorra just activated his Kundalini?? And then he’ll settle down over time. Will be interesting to find out…

      Reply

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